(Course: Humanities Year 2)
*DrS* Good afternoon/evening to you all.
*DrS* I hope you all enjoyed your Christmas break.
*DrS* Mag will not be with us today.
*DrS* However, the spirit of Mag will be with us, 
*Adam* :-)
*DrS* which I gather means that everyone should be ready to talk!  (But not more than you should.)
*DrS* Let's begin.
*DrS* In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.  Amen.
*DrS* Come Holy Spirit! Fill the hearts of Thy faithful. Enkindle in them the fire of Thy love.
*DrS* Send forth Thy Spirit, and they shall be created, and Thou shalt renew the face of the earth.
*DrS* Let us pray:
*DrS* O God, Who by the light of the Holy Spirit, didst instruct the hearts of the faithful, grant that, in the same Spirit, 
they may be truly 

wise and ever rejoice in His consolation.
*DrS*  Through Christ our Lord. Amen. 
*Adam* Fiat 
*Jack* Amen
*Amber* ?
*Eric* Amen
*Lisa* Amen
*Amber*Amen
*Kate* Amen
*Al* Amen
*Amber* ?
*Ted* Amen.
*DrS* Today we are discussing Gregory of Tours stories about Clovis.
*DrS* So, my first question is:
*DrS* What do we learn about Clovis?
*Adam* !
*Jack* !
*Ted* !
*DrS* GA Adam, Jack
*Jack* He was stubborn at first..
*Adam* He was a Frankish king and was not a convert to the church. Later, he believed because a battle had been won through prayer.
*Jack* Until God rescued him from battle
*DrS* Al?
*Al* He was rather resistive to Christianity. In fact, he blamed Christ for the death of his son. 
However, after he won a battle (after praying for Christ's help), he decided to become Christian.
*DrS* Anything else?
*Amber* !
*DrS* Amber?
*Adam* !
*DrS* Adam?
*Amber* Just a minor point...Clovis was a Frank, and because he led the Barbarians in christian conversion, France is called 
Eldest Sister of the Church in Eourope.
*Adam* He was against Christianity further because of the happenings to his 
sons when they were baptized (death and sickness). 
He also helped to convert a lot of his army.
*Adam* *However he also
*DrS* About what year did this happen?
*Adam* Which?
*DrS* His conversion.
*Jack* !
*DrS* Jack?
*Jack* about 486 A.D.?
*DrS* And you got that date from...?
*Jack* the textbook
*DrS* Page?
*Jack* 183, sorry
*Jack* in my version
*DrS* That's okay. 
*DrS* It gives me more questions to ask.
*Adam* :--0
*DrS* So how long was this after the fall of Rome?
*Amber* that would be before
*Amber* if rome hell in 497
*Amber* fell*
*Adam* !
*DrS* Adam?
*Adam* I think about 10 years after. 
*DrS* Who is right, Amber or Adam?
*DrS* Jean?
*Jean* I'm not sure
*Al* !
*DrS* Al?
*Al* Well, the official date for the fall of Rome was 476 AD. 
Therefore, Clovis' conversion would have been 10 years after the fall of Rome.
*DrS* And where did you get that date from?
*Amber* ARG
*Amber* i thought I had the date wrong...
*Jack* !
*Al* Every textbook dates the fall of Rome as 476.
*DrS* Jack?
*Adam* :-)
*Jack* Dictionary.com says Rome fell in 476 A.D., so 10 years after.. *g*
*DrS* Fair enough.
*Adam* *g*
*Jack* lol
*Adam* Heading of the chapter
*Adam* that too
*DrS* So Clovis conversion took place about 10 years after the fall of Rome.
*Adam* (Chapter 6)
*DrS* How does Clovis compare with the Romans?
*Kate* ?
*DrS* Kate?
*Kate* what do you mean by compare?
*DrS* Does he seem a lot like the Romans?
*Adam* !
*DrS* Adam?
*Kate* !
*Adam* Conquered places like Rome, came under the influence of the church, like Rome, had a considerable force of an army, like Rome.
*DrS* Kate?
*Adam* (Take back the army part maybe
*Kate* YEa I think so, I mean most of the stuff he did was romanish like worshipping more than one god...
*Amber* !
*DrS* Amber?
*Jack* !
*Amber* i think as a person, he was not like Romans.  Romans prized loyalty and patriotism, 
while he prized good warriors.  The values were different.  They shared few things, 
they were both eventually christian, and they both were conquerors
*DrS* Jack?
*Jack* When Clovis converted he expanded Christianity in Rome
*DrS* What do we think of Amber's claim?
*Jack* ?
*Adam* !
*DrS* Jack?
*DrS* Adam?
*Amber* anything?  is it totally blank out there?
*Adam* I think that Barbarians would have prized loyalty and patriotism. That would've been a great feature for a Barbarian leader to have.
*Jack* Were the Romans more open to Christianity during Clovis' reign?
*Amber* !
*Adam* And his followers to have.
*Adam* (They also prized military might, like Rome)
*DrS* Jack, why do you think that?
*Jack* I dunno..
*Jack* a lot of people converted..
*DrS* Can you quote something to support that?
*Amber* !
*DrS* Amber?
*Amber* what I meant was Rome much more so than barbarians.  I did not say that Barbarians did not have patriotism and such, 
it was that Rome prized it more
*Jack* Well I thought that when Clovis converted, many others followed
*DrS* Yes, but can you point us to the source of that thought?  Did you read it somewhere? Is it in the story that we read 
for today? Or in the textbook?
*DrS* Amber, Ashton, can you quote something that would show whether Clovis prized loyalty and patriotism or not?
*DrS* About Jack's point, can anyone help him?  
*DrS* Do others remember what Jack is talking about?
*Amber* ummm...no
*Adam* Well, for example, he wanted his followers to be baptized and that was part of prizing patriotism and loyalty...
loyalty to follow down the path of a leader.
*Adam* Also...
*Amber* I just gathered that opinion from what I read.  I don't really have much evidence of it
*Jack* I just thought of it, but here's what the textbook says "Clovis took an important step when he converted to 
Christianity, the religion of the people in Gaul. Not only did he earn their support but he also gained a powerful 
ally in the Christian church of Rome."
*Adam* Barbarians would've valued such things because they want power with them, the head leader. They would not
 want unloyalty or no patriotism. Further, why would Barbarians go to such measures for such leaders...
*Amber* !
*DrS* Amber, can you point us to something particular that you read that lead you to form that opinion?
*Amber* not really
*Kate* !
*DrS* Kate?
*Amber* I just kinda read about him and thought "this guy doesn't strike me as liking people who are loyal or patriotic"
*Kate* I remember now, Clovis tried to get the king converted and finally he did and like 3000 of his 
army got converted too
*DrS* Good, Jack, that's from the textbook, right?  What page?
*Jack* 183
*DrS* (p. 183 is p. 187 in my edition.)
*Adam* :-)
*DrS* Let me pause here to suggest something about preparation.
*DrS* To prepare well for a discussion class, you need to read through the assignment once, 
*DrS* and then REREAD it.
*Adam* Good idea...applies to all assignments?
*DrS* When you go over it the second time, highlight parts of the text that you think are important or striking.
*Adam* Or just the readings in the textbook and short stories?
*Jack* !
*DrS* Certainly for the reading assignments that are for discussion.
*Adam* Gotcha
*DrS* If you highlight parts, then you will be able to find them more easily.
*DrS* It's important to quote the texts that are the source of your opinions so that the rest of us can see whether  
we agree or disagree,
*DrS* or maybe find something else interesting the text that you might have missed.
*DrS* Jack?
*Jack* From reading the textbook, it seems that Christianity was already in Rome and *then* Clovis converted.. 
I didn't catch that the first time 
*DrS* Precisely my point!
*DrS* The first time you read something, you are likely going to get some things, but also misunderstand somethings.  
*DrS* By habituating yourself to look for the text that gave you the idea, you will often quickly realize your own mistakes.
*DrS* So, Jack, the Roman Church was already pretty strongly established when Clovis converted?
*Jack* I think so.. and his wife was Christian too.. 
*DrS* Let's all take a minute to skim through the story again....
*DrS* I want you to
*DrS* look for two things:
*DrS* One: signs that Church was well-established at the time of Clovis' conversion.
*Amber* ?
*DrS* Two:  Signs that Clovis valued or did not value (I know that's not what you were saying, Amber) loyalty and patriotism.
*DrS* Amber?
*DrS* Let's take a 5 minute break  while people skim.
*Mary* ok
*Jack* ! (first one)
*Adam* Done
*Mary* !
*DrS* Jack, Mary.
*DrS* ?
*Jack* People knew of baptism and had heard of salvation. Miracles were happening and churches were being built..
*Jack* and for the second one, Clovis tells his soldiers to conquer, but not to loot their enemy.
*Mary* There are churhes and bishops near Clovis, so that would mena that the church was well established all the way out in... 
the France area.
*Mary* And also, 42 sort of confused me, but Clovis gets angry at the brother who wasn't loyal to the brother who got bound.
Susan that confused me too a little
*DrS* Just for a little practice (and since we should be able to copy and paste really quickly), why don't you two 
actually quote a little bit of text about the Church.
*Mary* Clovis killed the second brother, but just whacked the other one across the head.  ""If you had aided your brother,
 he would not have been bound" And in the same way he smote him with his ax and killed him. "
*DrS* Mary, hold off on the brothers and whacking for a second.
*Mary* "the older of these, who became a nun,"
*Adam is writing like crazy
*Mary* that was b/f clotilda and clovis met
*DrS* Who became and nun?
*DrS* *a nun?
*Mary* "his wife wished to consecrate him in baptism"
*Mary* Clotilda's older sister
*Mary* became a nun
*DrS* By the way,
*Mary* "His two daughters he condemned to exile; the older of these, who became a nun..."
*Jack* "After all this he died at Paris and was buried in the church of the holy Apostles, which he himself had built 
together with his queen, Clodita."
*Adam* !
*DrS* Quoting text that is relevant to the discussion is a good way to get started participating for those of you who 
find it hard to get involved.
*DrS* And it can be very helpful.
*Jack* that proves that people wanted churches built and were open to Christianity
*Adam* !!
*DrS* Yes, Adam?
*Adam* OK I have a ton of stuff...please be patient with me :-)
*Mary* !
*Adam* Evidence that Christianity was well established:
*Adam* "And as his wife wished to consecrate him in baptism" She probably would not have wanted such a thing to happen 
to the child of a 
Barbarian leader if she had not a whole lot of church support
*Adam* "Then the queen asked saint Remi, bishop of Rheims, to summon Clovis secretly" This could probably
 not have happened if the 
church was far off.
*Adam* "saw a ball of fire come out of the church" implying that churches were near by
*Adam* Evidence that Clovis liked loyalty:
*Adam* "the people who follow me cannot endure to abandon their gods; but I shall go and speak to them according 
to your words" Here Clovis wants loyalty from his people so they can be united under one God.
*Adam* "And of his army more than 3000 were baptized" His army is loyal J
*Adam* "Since these words pleased all" his army was loyal and Clovis asks the army to do something for him, 
implying that he 
wants their loyalty
*Adam* "And quicker than speech the offender was slain" Clovis wants loyalty from his troops, not disloyalty.
*Adam* "king himself sent envoys to the blessed church saying" Obviously he KNEW where the church was. This 
would imply that the church was well established.
*Adam* "There was in these days a man of praiseworthy holiness" implying that the church had men in these parts.
*Adam* "Rightly does he receive this kind of gold, who of his own will brings his own master to death;" Clovis 
upholds loyalty to one person as a good value.
*DrS* Yes, we even have an abbot in reclusive monastery (Maxentius).
*Adam* Last:
*DrS* Ok, ok, you're overwhelming us Adam!
*Adam* lol ok nm then
* Amber becomes inundated
*DrS* Mary?
*Mary* "The boy, whom they named Ingomer, died after being baptized, still wearing the 
white garments in which he became regenerate."  The boy was baptized and was wearing a white gown... 
so even traditions such as a white baptismal gown were established.
*DrS* Isn't that amazing?
*Adam* Yeah
*Mary* yes
*Jack* yes
Susan yup
*DrS* I want to come back to the Church in a minute, but lets talk about loyalty for a little bit.
*DrS* Jack thought Clovis had spread Christianity to the  Romans, but it was the opposite.
*DrS* Now, Susan and Mary were confused about the brothers.
*Mary* :-)
Susan yeah
*DrS* This story in 42.
*DrS* What
*DrS* is the confusion?
*DrS* (Another note about preparation...
*DrS* When you are reading through and re-reading, highlight places that are confusing.
*DrS* Then you are ready with questions that will help you understand the text better.)
*Mary* The confusion is in who is on which side of this battle thing that's going on between... clovis and somebody else.
*Mary* and how did the brothers get chained up?
*Mary* are the brothers sons of Clovis?
*DrS* Mary, quote the text again that is confusing.
*Susan* Or did he choose to be bound as opposed to die?
*Mary* ok
*Mary* "And it was said that when food, or a gift, or anything whatever was brought to the king, he was wont 
to say that: it was enough for him and his Farro."
*Mary* so is Farro on Clovis' side?
*DrS* Ok, everybody, who is the king in this passage?
*Adam* !
*DrS* Adam?
*Adam* Ragnachar
*Mary* "Ragnachar
*Jack* Rganachar.. and Clovis is the other?
*Mary* Maybe you could help me by telling me what that quote means
*Jack* Ragnachar
*Mary* is that appalling for some reason?  "at this thing the Franks were in a great rage", but I don't see what is so offensive.
*DrS* At what thing?
*DrS* At the expression about Farro?
*Mary* the Franks were enranged at the fact that Ragnachar was wont to say  it was enough for him and his Farro."
*Mary* the Franks were enranged at the fact that Ragnachar was wont to say  it was enough for him and his Farro."
*Mary* ugh, sorry about the repeat
*Jack* They were angry because everything they gave to Ragnachar and Farro wasn't good enough
*Mary* oooh
*Mary* okay
*DrS* Maybe that's right.
*DrS* I had a tough time with that one, too.
*DrS* How about this one:
*DrS* And raising his ax he dashed it against his head, and he turned to his brother and said: 
"If you had aided your brother, he would not have been bound" And in the same way he smote 
him with his ax and killed him. 
*DrS* Who are the brothers?
*Adam* !
*Mary* !
*Jack* !
*DrS* Adam, Mary?
*Adam* Ricchar and Ragnachar
*Mary* I think i know!  were the brothers Ragnachar and his brother?
*DrS* Ok.
*DrS* Was that your question, Susan?
*Susan* yes i'm pretty sure i understand now
*DrS* Ok. So someone pointed to this text in reference to the importance of loyalty and patriotism.
*DrS* What does it say?
*Adam* !
*DrS* Adam?
*Adam* "Rightly," said he, "does he receive this kind of gold, who of his own will brings his own master to death."
*Jack* ?
*DrS* Jack?
*Jack* who were the betrayers?
*DrS* Can anyone answer this?
*Adam* !
Susan !
*DrS* Susan?
Susan some of ragnachar's men had betrayed their king and given information to clovis, i think
*Mary* !
*DrS* Allison?
*Mary* "And so it happened that Clovis gave golden armlets and belts, but all only made to resemble gold-for 
it was bronze gilded so as to deceive-these he gave to Ragnachar's leudes to be invited to attack him."  Clovis gave the 
betrayers fake gold so that they wouldn't be rewarderd for their betrayal.
*Mary* I think...
*DrS* Very good.
*DrS* That makes sense.
*DrS* Then add this:
*DrS* Clovis came and made war on him, and he saw that his army was beaten and prepared to slip away in flight, 
but was seized by his army, and with his hands tied behind his back, he was taken 
with Ricchar his brother before Clovis. 
*Jack* ok
*Mary* too many pronouns
*Mary* but i got it
*DrS* Yes, but I think that all the he's refer to Ragnachar.
*DrS* Ok, so Clovis gave fake gold objects to betray their king, then blamed them for betraying him.
*DrS* Now, all these texts were supposed to show how important loyalty was to Clovis. 
*DrS* What about patriotism?
*Adam* ?
*DrS* Adam?
*Adam* Isn't patriotism almost synonymous with loyalty?
*Adam* Or what is the difference exactly?
*DrS* What do we think  about that?
*Jack* !
*DrS* Jack?
*Mary* !
*DrS* Mary?
*Jack* I think patriotism is more about being faithful to your country
*Mary* I think that the incident we just described with the betrayers serves to show that Clovis appreciated patriotism.
Susan !
*DrS* Whereas loyalty, Jack, is...?
*DrS* Susan?
*Amber* !
*DrS* Amber?
*Jack* loyalty is more of being honest to yourself and other people? though you can be loyal to your country too.. 
*Amber* oyalty is about honest to other people, giving them your honor, and them giving you theirs
*Susan* i think that patriotism is devotion to one's country and nationality although not necessarily 
agreeing with its current leaders and stance whereas loyalty is more devotion to a country's leaders and stance
*Adam* Ah, that seems to make sense.
*Jack* doesn't Patriot come from the latin word pater meaning father.. as in fatherland 
*DrS* Then, do we think the story shows that patriotism is important Clovis?
*DrS* *to Clovis.
*Mary* !
*DrS* Allison?
*Mary* yes, because the betrayers put thier country in serious danger by being disloyal
*Mary* (is disloyal a word?  my brain is freezing up)
*Al* (yes, it is)
*Mary* so the betrayers were disloyal *and* unpatriotic
*DrS* Do we agree with Allison?
*Al* Yes.
Susan yes
*DrS* Is he blaming them for putting their country in jeopardy, or their king?
*Adam* !
*DrS* Adam?
*Adam* Thek ing
*Adam* king
*DrS* Mary? 
*Mary* specifically, the king
*DrS* Yes.
*DrS* So if the distinction between loyalty (in one sense) and patriotism is that one is ordered to specific people, 
and the other to the nation or country (and not necessarily to its  leaders), 
*DrS* then we should say that Clovis expects loyalty rather than patriotism.
*DrS* I think that's right, 
*DrS* and it also gets at the  heart of what Feudalism is.
*DrS* If you look at page 191 (in my book, the beginning of Section 2)
*DrS* the solemn oath that the nobles made to Count William of Flanders was to be loyal to him, not to Flanders.
*DrS* Feudalism was based on personal loyalty, not national loyalty.  
*DrS* In fact, nations in our sense of the term didn't exist between the fall  of Rome and the opening of modern times.
*DrS* Well, we're out of time, so we can't really get back to the Church.
*Amber* ok
*DrS* But the texts that we brought up make me wonder how much the Fall of Rome affected the Church.
*DrS* Think about it.
*DrS* I have my Office Hour Thursday at 1  p.m. (Pacific) if you want to continue the discussion.
*DrS* Class dismissed.